...how did I get here?
Dropping out has been on my mind even more than usual, mostly because tuition is coming due in about a month.
It is such a hard topic to get advice about, and I think that's because no matter who I ask, I know what the response will be. If I ask someone from one of the scam-busting blogs, they will tell me that I should definitely drop out. If I ask a friend or relative, they will tell me to stick it out for one more year.
Why is this so hard? It's not like dropping out of college. I have a college degree. This was, theoretically, supposed to be a bonus -- the cherry on top of my undergraduate pedigree. And now that I see that it is nothing more than a hindrance, it should be the easiest thing in the world to give up.
These posts from Scammed Hard and Esq. Never really got me thinking and forced me to ask myself what I am clinging to. It's not the "sunk cost" thing... those costs are what they are. I know there are no legal jobs, but I just wish there were any jobs, so I could feel that at least if I drop out I would be able to do something else within a reasonable span of time.
I guess this post really has no main point. I'm not exactly asking a question, but I do wonder if anyone out there has any thoughts or advice. I feel like every option sucks.
Whether or not you stay in or drop out depends in part on the route you want your career to take. I was talking to an HR lady a couple of days ago who said that being overqualified was a big red flag for potential hires.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is a double sided problem. A law degree may hurt your chances of gaining entry level employment in other fields. On the other hand, having a law degree may help you advance in your chosen field, once you have the relevant experience and credibility.
I work in human resources for a large company and I look at tons of resumes everyday. My company will interview and hire law grads for non-legal positions if they have good grades (preferably at a t14) and some business background or something else indicating that they have invested their time in non-legal career pursuits or interests. My company likes to hire people of diverse academic and professional backgrounds, so I can't say that we are typical of other HR people.
ReplyDeleteAs someone who makes hiring decisions I can confirm that you have a hard road ahead of you, whatever you decide. If you choose to stick it out, many employers will want to see something really stand out so they know you would be able to add value to the company as a non-lawyer. If your undergrad and law school institution, grades and work experience are strong, you might be able to land a non-legal job eventually if you can't find a law job. If you don't have that, it will be hard to convince someone to seriously consider you for a non-legal position. We take the perspective that the legal market is bad, and many lawyers might want to get out of the legal field. If someone is smart and successful, we can take them on and train them to work in our business.
On the other hand, you could quit now, and have a 1 or 2 year employment gap to explain away. With the sheer volume of resumes I see on a daily basis, I can tell you that someone with a first tier law degree is going to make it further through our recruitment process than someone with that big of a resume gap. You could explain the reason for the gap in the cover letter or hope that the recruiter won't notice, but either way it will be tough going. Even if your resume makes it through with the gap, any good recruiter will drill down to find out why that gap is there and will not look favorably on having quit school. You could lie and say you were attending to serous family business or something, although I am not sure if I've heard anyone making it through with that as a reason.
Ultimately I think that finishing law school will damage your resume less in your first few months out of school if you have the qualities I described previously. However, everything that I'm saying is purely from a "damage control for your resume perspective." I know there are other factors to consider in making this decision: debt, your sanity, losing more time in law school.
Whatever you do, hang in there. There are many of us who made less than savvy educational choices. All we can do is encourage others not to make the same mistakes and do the best damage control we can.
Posted in two parts since it's too long:
ReplyDeleteI work in human resources for a large company and I look at tons of resumes every day. My company will interview and hire law grads for non-legal positions if they have good grades (preferably at a t14) and some business background or something else indicating that they have invested their time in non-legal career pursuits or interests. My company likes to hire people of diverse academic and professional backgrounds, so I can't say that we are typical of other HR people.
As someone who makes hiring decisions I can confirm that you have a hard road ahead of you, whatever you decide. If you choose to stick it out, many employers will want to see something really stand out so they know you would be able to add value to the company as a non-lawyer. If your undergrad and law school institution, grades and work experience are strong, you might be able to land a non-legal job eventually if you can't find a law job. If you don't have that, it will be hard to convince someone to seriously consider you for a non-legal position. We take the perspective that the legal market is bad, and many lawyers might want to get out of the legal field. If someone is smart and successful, we can take them on and train them to work in our business.
Part 2:
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, you could quit now, and have a 1 or 2 year employment gap to explain away. With the sheer volume of resumes I see on a daily basis, I can tell you that someone with a first tier law degree is going to make it further through our recruitment process than someone with that big of a resume gap. You could explain the reason for the gap in the cover letter or hope that the recruiter won't notice, but either way it will be tough going. Even if your resume makes it through with the gap, any good recruiter will drill down to find out why that gap is there and will not look favorably on having quit school. You could lie and say you were attending to serous family business or something, although I am not sure if I've heard anyone making it through with that as a reason.
Ultimately I think that finishing law school will damage your resume less in your first few months out of school if you have the qualities I described previously. However, everything that I'm saying is purely from a "damage control for your resume perspective." I know there are other factors to consider in making this decision: debt, your sanity, losing more time in law school.
Whatever you do, hang in there. There are many of us who made less than savvy educational choices. All we can do is encourage others not to make the same mistakes and do the best damage control we can.
Do you have the option of a leave of absence for a year?
ReplyDeleteMake it a productive year, look for other work, and you could always go back part-time to finish up the degree later on while you work. It's also a great way to push back entering into the market another year, too, without sacrificing the investment you have already made.
I want to retract my earlier comment @ 9:53 since I read on to discover that you are entering your third year. Furthermore, since you have an ivy league education, you may be able to parlay your law degree into something that wouldn't be accessible to lesser pedigreed folks. Also, a law degree looks a lot more "serious" than an English undergrad degree, which should theoretically open up a broader range of opportunity as well.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking as someone who has left law school, it is a good decision only if you have some kind of fall back. I am not in complete congruency with bloggers that law school is a complete scam. There is knowledge to be gotten from these institutions, just no where near the price they are asking for. Additionally Rose Colored, there are jobs, but yes, they are incredibly hard to get and are not paying what they used to. Yet I will say this, if you do choose to drop out, do not look back. Lastly, though I have met a few content lawyers, they are few and far between. The vast majority are addicted to some substance(s) or are simply so dead inside that they are simply the most boring people around. Best of luck.
ReplyDeleteLaw is one of those odd fields of study where the first year grades matter more than the cumulative grades. For the degree to really "pay off" economically, one must really have an offer from a Biglaw firm in hand by the beginning of third year. Outside of that, the chances of a good paying or meaningful job will depend on hard work, creativity, and luck.
ReplyDeleteInteresting perspective from the anonymous HR commenter. A JD without meaningful work experience is worthless. A JD plus some business and real world experience gives you a fighting chance.
I stuck it out. It hasn't been easy, but I think the Scarlet Q for "quitter" is harder to shake off as the HR poster discussed. My wife had to drop out of school due to a legitimate, chronic illness, and she has been fighting to come back to "level" ever since. The employment world doesn't care why you quit, even if it is completely legitimate. The fact is - you did. Not fair at all, but the truth.
ReplyDeleteTotal Catch-22 on the "experience". If you have some experience, then the JD is "worth something". No easy answers there.
The debt is no fun, and I struggle with that too. You have to think long-term, yet I fully admit the short-term is painful at times.
*Same as it ever was, same as it ever was...*
I'm in a bit of a similar situation, although my UG degree is somewhat marketable (or at least would have been right out of college) and I'm a rising 2L rather than 3L. I'm taking a semester off, at the very least I'm going to test the market. I've had one interview and two phone interviews so far, so I'm hoping all is not lost. Whatever you decide, I enjoy reading your posts and wish you the best of luck.
ReplyDeleteI would give credence to the info from the guy who works in HR for a large company. You have an Ivy undergrad degree. That will - or should - give you a better chance when looking for employment.
ReplyDeleteI generally tell people to drop out after first year or first semester (preferrably, after first semester) if their grades do not land them in the top 10% at a third tier turd - or outside the top third at a first tier law school. I figure once someone has one more year to go, they may as well finish- UNLESS they will take on another $40K-$50K in nondischargeable debt to do so. (That is an extra $300 monthly payment on your student loans - over the course of 30 years.) Then again, it is damn near impossible to adequately explain a 2 year gap in employment - or why you dropped out of law school with one year to go.
In the end, you need to work the financial math and determine what is best for you. I know plenty of lawyers who are stuck with $900 monthly student loan payments, while earning a paltry $30K-$36K a year. It is sickening.
Stay in school, then head out west for a job. The legal market is kinder and gentler out here. Try a good regional firm in Denver, Kansas City or Des Moines. You may be surprised at how enjoyable the law can be.
ReplyDeleteI think it depends upon what you want to do. If you're not sure, then I think taking a leave of absence would be the wisest thing.
ReplyDeleteIf you are sure, then do some research and see whether a law degree would help you get to that point. A law degree doesn't help in all instances. I was always told that having a higher degree would help you get your foot in the door. However, I know that a lot of employers want experience and know that a degree doesn't necessarily give you the skills that you need to do the job.
I graduated when the economy was at its worst. I wasn't planning on going to law school yet, but I couldn't find a job and I believed that having an advanced degree would help me find a job. In some instances, this is true but not always. I just finished the first year and realized that I was bored all the time, wasn't a good fit for the law, and it wasn't the right degree for what I wanted to do. I dropped out and know it's the right decision for me. You have to do the research and decide what's right for you.
Once again, no one mentioned the income based repayment (IBR) option. Research it before you make a decision. Under this plan, your student loan payments will be capped at a certain percentage (about 10% of discretionary income) for federal loans for 25 or 10 years (if you get a public job). 2 caveats: IBR does NOT apply to private loans, and if your debt is forgiven after the 25 or 10 yrs, this amount will be considered taxable income in the final year(unless Congress has or will make an exception).
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like you don't have many job prospects either way. As everyone here knows, the legal jobs market is lousy with no prospects of rebounding. However, the jobs market is bad in all industries. Recent health care, education, and engineering grads are struggling to find work. Depending on your nonlegal job prospects and your debt scenario (i.e. how much is private), you might not be losing much by adding another year of federal loans.
Anyways, the status quo is unsustainable, and major change is on the horizon. I predict that the student loan debtors prison will not last.
The real time to drop out would have been after first or second semester 1L. I agree that the biggest hurdle would be explaining your resume gap. I've accepted that there are no legal jobs and that, if I'm lucky, I will make 40k a year in a completely unrelated field, and have a huge portion of my income eaten up by student loans for a worthless degree. That being said, it's hard as hell to sign off on a final year of loans for something you know to be worthless, and which will likely hang around your neck like a huge weight. What's worse, a scarlet "Q" for quitter, or two bright red "J.D." letters?
ReplyDeleteAs you noted, it would be different if there were "any" jobs out there. My non-law friends who graduated in the past year or two are by and large working part-time jobs that you could land right out of high school. I don't have a single friend with an undergrad who isn't in some form of grad school, or gearing up to go. It's impossible to exaggerate just how bad the job prospects are out there. Most people want to take on extra debt and take cover for a few more years in school.
Every 3L is going to have to make the dropout decision on their own. Prospects are not rosy in any case, and I have nothing but respect for those who refuse to fork over more tuition money, even this late in the game. On the other hand, I guess there is a grudging respect for those who feel the need to "stick it out" and at least complete the "prestigious" degree, although I'm sure they will regret this decision, too.
Godspeed to all waylaid 3Ls (the majority of them, in this economy).
You should have known better than to go in the first place. Lemming.
ReplyDelete"What's worse, a scarlet "Q" for quitter, or two bright red "J.D." letters?"
ReplyDeleteHah! Touche, ScammedHard!
Next time, kiddies, remember to be born into a rich and well-connected family before starting law school (or any school, for that matter)!
Rose, this is the real Nando. The comment from July 27, 2010 3:47 pm was from a piece of shit going by internet handle "Doug." He also pulled this crap on "First Tier Toilet" and "Laid Off Lawyer."
ReplyDeleteWhen you click on my name, from this comment, you will see that it takes you to my profile. When you do so on the July 27th comment, it will show that the Blogger profile is not available. I contacted Blogger and soon after "Doug's" moronic "Journey to a JD and Beyond" blog was shut down.